What Horse Do You Have?
What Horse Do You Have?
Before you start, it will be very beneficial to figure out what kind of horse you are working with. Knowing this will determine where you start because it makes a difference even when you are just going to hang out with them.
If you have a horse that tends to be pushy and wants to be close to you in a detrimental way, we’d like to get them to where they prefer to stay away from us (Don’t worry, this will not ruin the connection you are going to be building).
If you have a horse that tends to ignore or want to stay away from you, we’d like to get them to where they want to hang out with us.
This is all about the draw/drive balance. If you had 100% drive, as soon as your horse saw you from a distance, they’d run away. If you had 100% draw, as soon as your horse saw you, they’d run up to you, into you and possibly over you. This is a sub-optimal interaction when dealing with an animal 10x your size.
We’d actually prefer to have a horse that doesn’t want to be anywhere near you than one that wants to run over you. Horses are prey animals and it is perfectly normal for them to wish to maintain a distance from a predator and totally abnormal to want to run up to and push into a predator. So if your horse doesn’t want to be anywhere near you, that’s perfectly normal horse behavior. If you can’t get your horse off of you, then an integral part of what makes a horse a horse, is missing.
In a herd of horses, the only horse who is allowed to lean physically on another horse is the foal who is allowed to lean on his mother. Other members of the herd will allow the foal to have less awareness of their personal space until it becomes weaning time. Then the mother (and the others) will start to make the foal aware of their space and this is actually a part of the mental & emotional maturation process of the foal, and is a concept ethologist Lucy Rees calls “Collision Avoidance”. We have seen many horses that are led by humans in a way that allows the horse to push their shoulder into the person while being led (similar to how the foal will push into the mother) and not only does this condone this juvenile behavior, but also is the cause of a lot of other juvenile behaviors that people wish to solve.
Not only does Collision Avoidance help horses to be more self aware and self confident, it’s what allows a herd of horses to move together without jostling each other, like a flock of birds or a school of fish. They want to stick together without running into each other, which I imagine is about a 50% draw and 50% drive ratio. As mentioned earlier, this is the goal, but not usually the starting point for most people, as they are dealing with one that wants to be too close, or one that wants to be too far away.
You will learn about Collision Avoidance in this course – it is made up of Leading With Energy and Focus & Bend exercises.
The exercise I reference in this video will be the first one you try – but not today! We still have some other things to figure out before you go out with your horse.
A reminder how to use this course: click on Mark Complete below and you will be taken to the next topic.
I just got a horse that is very sweet, but is pushing into me at the gate, while leading him from pasture to barn, and when delivering hay to his stall. He will back off if I ask him to back up, but slowly makes his way back to me until he is touching me. I am going to try hanging out with him outside the fence and see if there is any improvement. Hoping to learn new ideas here, and this talk was useful to me.
that was great ! My horse, a 5 year old Arabian, (never handled until I got him ) was an orphan and I thought we were bonding – he’s very loving and runs in from the field – but now I realize he’s too in my space. We’re going to have to work on better balance. . . he’s extremely all over my older mare – never giving her space – rubbing his head all over her – biting and glued to her – she gets so irritated with him
I’ll be sitting outside the fence –
Reassuring to watch this and read the previous two comments. My horse is also too pushy. I try to get him out of my space and he gets stressed. Interesting to see how to start approaching this
I have one of each! A shut-down gelding who’d prefer to avoid humans, and a pushy young mare who knows no boundaries and will literally step on you (and I have had a broken toe to attest to that!) So I get to practice it all…
Its always good to have one of each, they keep you in the middle.
I have a 20 yr old mare that was clingy for a long time. When I got her at two, she still ‘baby chewed’ at other horses… she had been a severely neglected filly until not long after weaning. Anyway – I knew nothing of this kind of work… but I did note that as soon as I was able to offer TRUST to this mare, when she was 12 or 13 yrs (as opposed to fearing that a spook might occur at any moment) she.. well, she grew up. I think she sensed my determination to TRUST her, and she was able to reach up to that point. Or maybe she’d been ready for a long time, but was offering what she believed I wanted from her (a filly, not a full grown MAREwith a full grown mare’s sense of SELF)
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When I started working with you a few years ago my horse literally ran the other way when she saw me coming. Now she will keep grazing or doing what she’s doing, and eventually come over… but when she gets over to me she stands too close. She will stand facing me with her nose touching me. If I try to go around to the side of her she will turn so she is facing me, with her nose touching me. I am 100% certain I did this, as I was so excited when she started coming to me instead of running away I didn’t create appropriate boundaries. I’m not sure what to do now, because if I stand on the other side of the fence I don’t think she will even ever come over, but I’d like her to back up off me a little bit when we are standing together.
PS. I am LOVING this 30 day jump start. It’s so helpful. I’m getting ready to start working with one of our other horses, but it’s, of course, helping me see things I didn’t see before with Goose. <3 Thank you for putting it together. I appreciate it!
The nose touching you is fine. Its where their body is thats determines if they are too close.
Holy smokes that’s the first time I’ve heard a coherent explanation of a horse like mine. I look very much forward to learning more.
This is so interesting! I always used to wish my mare was a bit more ‘pushy’ but now I’m realizing that’s not so great after all. She’s definitely more drive than push. She does walk up to me in the pasture (admittedly, I do give her a ‘hello cookie’ – is that bad?) but she usually stays a metre or two away from me and lets me come up to her. In a training context, she’s definitely more drive and a bit on the ‘Please leave me alone’ side. So I’ll have to work on creating a bit more push while maintaining a healthy amount of drive.
I have a pushy 6 year old Welsh Cob that I bought a year ago. He needs constant reminders to stay out of my space. I haven’t been consistent with him as there is a part of me that enjoys being close with my animals. This video has given me a lot to think about. Self awareness will make me a better horsewoman. For now I’ll cuddle with my dog.
I have one of each. But the one who respects my space and I can just hang with is usually pushy at feeding time – so I need to work on that.
This was helpful. I have an eight year old Gelding, that leans towards more drive. He doesn’t run away, but will avoid me by wedging himself in between a couple other horses. In particular, he will slide up beside the lead mare. He is in a pasture of about 15 horses. When I enter the pasture to hang out with him, Many of the horses come up to greet me, while he is turning away. A couple of those that greet me are very pushy. It’s interesting to watch this video with all of them in mind. Fortunately,, after a few minutes of just hanging out and not asking anything of him, he will generally turn towards me, come over and say hello. We were hanging out near each other a couple of days ago, quite comfortably while he snoozed in the sun. Another horse came alongside me and pushed into me rather hard, disturbing the peace. My horse repositioned himself in between me and the pusher, as if to set a boundary himself, and then went back to snoozing. I would like to try this technique to address the initial avoidance, but I’m unsure of how to manage the pushy pasture mates while working with mine.
Can you take him out to work with him individually?
This was already super helpful. I got a 9 year old mustang who is too pushy. I was told by a trainer to just hangout in the pen with him. From day 1 he was in my face and super curious. Never afraid. I was told how amazing that was but really he is just pushy. I will start hanging out outside the pen. Thanks!
Question. I’ve got a horse that likes there space and every once and awhile will come to say hello win the pasture and then go about his business after a quick hello. Where he gets pushy is when I’m going to let him out to the pasture or feed him. He’ll get in my space. What is the best way to get him not to do this?
“Where he gets pushy is when I’m going to let him out to the pasture or feed him. ”
What is his living situation?
During the day he is in the big green pasture grazing. I bring him in around 5pm to his stall or the outside dry lot but I bring his donkey friend in with him and they share the space. They get let out again around 10am the next day.
Ok, the pushy going to the pasture is just anticipation I think. is he pushing into you, or pushing to get past you to go to the pasture?
Just past me to get to the pasture. Definitely anticipation but also need him to know personal space. Right?
So thats not pushing into you, you just happen to be between the horse and the pasture
What adjustments might you make with a mule or donkey?
The same adjustments Id make with a horse depending on what nervous system state they are in.
I have an OTT 16year old gelding who would like to be in my lap if he could. I am working on getting him more secure and mainly trying to better myself noticing more, being attuned and body aware in my communication. I am sure I give a lot of double messages to him and our other horses too. He is generally good in a herd.
I give horse riding lessons, horse camps, and horse birthday parties and one of my lesson horses has started pinning her ears, balling up, biting the persons foot, and eventually kicking out angrily behind when my students (usually kids anywhere from 5-15 years old) put their leg on, click, or tap her with a crop to get her to move forward. I can get on and she won’t do any of that because she knows it does not intimidate me, but as soon as my students get on she knows she can intimidate them so they don’t ask anything of her. My question is will this way of connecting and interacting with her transfer over to my students who just want to ride her? These kids are so young that they do not have an interest (and for some they are so young they do not have the ability either) to create connection through change in focus, or stand still and present, lead with energy, etc. They just want to ride and their lessons are only 30-60 minutes long. They do not want to be horse trainers, they just want to have a good time riding. Will my connection with her transfer over to them when riding even though they will not have that partnership with her that I do? Or will she continue to intimate them no matter what kind of connection I have with her?
“and one of my lesson horses has started pinning her ears, balling up, ”
Im interested in the “started” part. Sounds like she didnt used to do it, any idea what has changed?
Yes, she has been a lesson horse for several years and over the years she has gradually gotten more and more reluctant to go forward. In response my lesson kids have gotten harder and harder on her with the legs and the crop. When I tried to encourage the kids to start out gentle and gradually go harder until she responded, they got bored because it rarely worked and they just wanted to go forward. So they would resort to the hard ask and eventually she got so tired of their hard asks that she kicked out really hard and scared them. Immediately they stopped asking her and she got the response she was looking for. Even though the kids no longer ask her hard anymore, she continues to refuse to go forward when they are on her. She even pins her ears and tries to bit their boots as they mount up on her before they even ask her to go forward. When they put a light leg on her she immediately balls up, bites at their leg, pins her ears, and if they ask again she kicks out hard with both legs behind her.
But doesnt show any of that for you, even when you first get on?
Yes, she does, but i back off until she is accepting of me getting on. Sometimes it takes 30-40 minutes just to get on her. The kids don’t have that kind of patience nor do they want to spend their lesson doing that. So my concern is she will continue to do this because I wait on her to be accepting, but the kids do not.
OK, so dont let the kids on her until shes perfect for you, and it doesnt take 30-40 minutes, but instead takes 10 seconds.
One more follow up question to that. This horse is one of my main lesson horses and to take her out of the program until she is good for me leaves me in a predicament, especially with group lessons where I don’t have enough horses without her. Would I (and my kicking horse) be better off with me focusing on working with another horse to take her place in the lesson program and then once that new horse is ready to go, then pull my kicking horse out of the program so I can work exclusively with her? Or would it be better to keep trying to work with her and do the best I can even though she will also have to be ridden by the kids? Either way I do not really have a way to instantly pull her from the program because I do not have a replacement for her (and I have found a temporary way to keep her from kicking out by following her around the arena on foot with the flag and when the kids want to trot I wave the flag at her from the ground and she will trot). Is there one path that would be better for her than another?
I think chasing her around with the flag when she doesnt want to go with lesson kids IS part of the problem. How long has it been that it takes 30-40 minutes to get on her?
About 4 rides. That was actually why I reached out to you. I feel like I’m caught between a rock and a hard place. Giving lessons is how I make a living, but it’s also why I feel like I’m not getting anywhere with her because any progress we make is whiped away by the next kid lesson I give. Am I just spinning my wheels?
So its only recent, so you need to figure out what changed. Is she now sore? Things like that.
Thank you! I will have the vet come look at her and I will also think back to see if anything else has changed to cause this. Thank you for helping me figure this all out. I appreciate it!
I really liked this video….gave me a lot to think about.
My old girl – the one that was hard to catch until about 3 mths ago, will stand still in the paddock. Some days she will turn and walk away, usually a big circle around me to the gate where she ordinarily gets fed, then stand and wait. I did spend a lot of time just hanging out with her to get to the catching point. I’ve noticed in the last few weeks that she will stand and wait for me to come out of the house, nicker, then slowly make her way to the gate. She stands back from the gate. I can do one of two things – some days I can put her fly veil on her without entering paddock. Other days she will step back and I have to go in, greet her then put the veil on. She is not at all pushy. I suspect she was mistreated as she’s still a bit head shy and she stiffens in her body when I go to touch her. Once my hands are on her, brush of just a neck rub, she relaxes.
My 12 yo mare will wait at the gate, yes she will hang over it to greet me but then she will move. However the minute I go to enter, she will come back to the gate and I have to ask her to move back. She does have a tendency to be pushy, if I have feed, but then I can just chill in her paddock and she’ll wander off and occasionally come back to check in. So do I need to chill outside the paddock for awhile to stop that initial pushiness?
Finally, the TB gelding. He is a definite hang over the gate, paws at the gate, will nip if given the chance kinda guy. He is food aggressive so I point “away” before I enter the paddock and he will wander off and return when I’ve placed his feed in his feed bin. I’m ok with that. When in the paddock with him he’ll wander over and check me out but he’s not pushy with that. I’m still working on my connection with him so I need to just hang out but I’m curious about him hanging over the gate and pawing at it.
A very helpful way of looking at the horse. Is it normal that my horse (3 year old, Shagya Arabian gelding) is a little different every day? Sometimes he is more pushy and has more draw, sometimes he gets a little bit internal, is withdraws and has more drive. Overall, he often behaves in the middle.
He is also pretty different in training. Some days he stops several times on the way to the riding arena and shows signs of stress. So I stop with him and make the flowchart. The next day he is totally relaxed and we can train harmoniously. Is that normal for a 3-year-old? He is my first horse that young.
It seems its normal for him. As long as you interact with him in according to the way he is that day, you will be fine